how did you find out about the fandom?
I found out about the fandom when I was about 7 years old (I cant remember very well) and was taking one of those "if you were an animal, what kind would you be?" quizzes. Towards the end of the quiz there was a question that asked: are you a furry? Since I was so curious, I looked what is was up on google and was amazed. About 3 years later, I started to find out more things about the fandom and that you could be a part of it (yes! I did not know you could be a part of it!). I kept on doing research about the fandom over the years until it brought me here to the Anthrocon website.
I remember getting the ol' MU* lists off of UseNet to find out which ones were up and down - particularly FurryMUCK. Nostalgia, anyone? http://www.gruntose.com/Info/Games/mud_docs/sites/mud_list
Yes, I remember Usenet, still read it via Google groups.
And I remember the name you used to use there 
Yes indeed. "The Mystic Mongoose".
Because I knew there'd be more than one 'mongoose' on the internet. I needed an _adjective_.
I haven't read Usenet in years, but that was also how I got my start - alt.lifestyle.furry, back around 1997. Which was how I wound up running a panel at my first Albany Anthrocon in 1998
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Tom Brady/Duncan da Husky
Artists Alley and Con Store Manager
For fastest replies to questions about Artists Alley, e-mail me at
I remember usenet. I hooked up with furries obliquely, through alt.fan.dragons.
I didn't wend my way to the mainstream of furry until sometime later, when a bunch of my AFD friends decided to meet up at the local furry gather (Anthrocon!) for dinner and hangout time.
Usenet newsgroup...that's a dialup bulletin board service from the 80's, isn't it? 
I discovered Furry Fandom through the aegis of the World-Wide Web.
I had been a long-time user of Compuserve Information Services, an "On-Line Service" which, while self-contained and HUGE in the resources and access to other services and networks that it offered, eventually was compelled by competition to offer a highly-graphic on-line environment, with access to the rapidly all-consuming World-Wide Web. previous to this, Compuserve - which could be accessed from a simple ASCII terminal, or any mini-computer which would run connectivity programs such as modem7 or CP/M versions of CrossTalk - had offered gateways to "the Internet" with things like the UUNet "UseNet", and utilities like "Finger" and "Archie" and "Gopher" - but I had never bothered with any of these. CompuServe was a big enough world for me.
And then, one day, my boss - the Southwestern regional Superintendent for Communications, Southern Pacific Railroad - decided to buy us a new office computer, an IBM which would run Windows 95 (I think that this was actually 1997 when we did this) and I had received, unbidden, a Compuserve 3 upgrade CD, which included an Internet browser. I and my co-workers were encouraged to see what sort of use this could be put to - and we happily started to explore the world of HyperText Links, and search engines, and maastered "Web Surfing" in about a day. Our first day exploring lead to the webpage of my coworkers' home town, which impressed him; and I had recently rescued/adopted a Malamute from the Burbank Dog Pound, and under that influence, explored the world of links connected to the subject of the Iditarod Dog Sled race, which was underway at that particular time. And of course each link led to a page, leading to a whole 'nother source of MORE links, and I became addicted.
...Eventually - when I had a few hours to myself, alone - I decided to indulge in a search for images or stories about Foxes, for...personal reasons. I found Adam's Fox Box, among other things - yes, that was definitely worth a bookmark - and nice wildlife images of foxes in field and forest - and then found a website where a proud mother had posted her daughter's school report about Swift Foxes. You know - one of those overweaning parents who are convinced that their child is SPECIAL, and entitled to every advantage which her parents' money and social standing can bestow; and at the end of the report - which looked very much like the mother had orchestrated and perhaps even written - was a comment about how DIFFICULT it was to find information on the net related to foxes, as about 90 percent of her websearches returned links to strange, sick people who pretended that they were foxes, and even CLAIMED to be foxes, with personal web pages on the 'net.
She said that these people called themselves..."Furries".
...I got no more work done that day. I nearly stopped breathing. It was like I had been poleaxed (WHY is rather personal). But within the week, I had figured out how to access alt.fan.furry. alt.horror.werewolves,...and alt.lifestyle.furry.
There are chunks missing from this story - they go back to March 1973, and they are too personal to write about - but I would not have discovered Furry Fandom (and other things) as such, except through an accidental journey on the World-Wide Web.
so...you owe your existence as a furry to an addiction to hyperlinks and a mother's coveting of her daughters schoolwork?
that's not weird at all.
so...you owe your existence as a furry to an addiction to hyperlinks and a mother's coveting of her daughters schoolwork?
NO.
I owe my discovery of Furry Fandom - my realisation that there were certainly others who had some deep and involved interest, if not an obsession, with Foxes - both the real and tangible wildlife of this reality, and the abstract concept of Vulpinity - and that there might just be a few - a precious, relative few - on this earth who felt and believed and saw existence as I did, through the same eyes, with the same feelings and similar experiences.
It meant that I might not be Alone.
That is quite a different thing - and goes perhaps a bit beyond "Fandom", and the boundaries of this thread and this forum - into areas with which the bulk of Furry Fans may not wish to be so associated - which is why I left out about 30-plus years of detail.
But I have, in the process, become a fan - and this is why you will almost always see me make reference to us as "Furry Fans", instead of as "Furries" - as I have learned the ways of "Fandom" in general, and Anthropomorphic Fandom in particular.
...And THAT is what I owe to "...an addiction to hyperlinks and a mother's coveting of her daughters schoolwork."
Anything beyond that, any inference, I do not post about, but keep to myself; it is extraneous and not important to the promotion, encouragement, or enjoyment of Furry Fandom as a wholesome endeavour, accessible to anyone and everyone.
Basically, Fate. The first artist I met at my first SF convention was Vicki Wyman, in 1978. That may mean something to the Greymuzzles and be utterly confusing to newer furs...
My first exposure to furries came in the form of that infamous CSI episode. The first time I saw the episode I really didn't think much of it. It wasn't until several months later that I thought about that CSI episode again and decided to look furries up on the internet to see what it was all really about. I know what you are all thinking, why would I need to look up furries on the internet when CSI is so acurate in their shows 
but i decide to look anyway . After finding out what the furry fandom really was I realized that I have been a furry most of my life, I just didn't realize there was a fandom for it (shame I didn't find out about it earlier). When I got home later that day and told my mate I was a furry she gave me the weirdest look because all she could think of was CSI. After I explained what furry was to her she realized that she was a furry too and had been most of her life.
On a little side note, when I first joined the fandom I had no desire to wear a fursuit at all. It wasn't until we attended our first con, RMFC 2008, that I started wanting to have a suit. I finished my suit about 3 months after that con and then made a couple of partial suits for my mate. AC 2009 was my first time wearing the suit to a convention and I had a blast. Really looking forward to when we can go again.
I found furry through the Lion King fandom in 1998.
I got into it by way of Sonic the Hedgehog fanfic, circa 1995/1996, shortly after getting on the Internet for the first time at school---and that was after having an unusually strong love of the animated TV series on ABC, that ran from 1993 to 1995. (And of which I now have a DVD box set 
)
Though I never got into TLK fanfic, I adored the film, like everyone else. My older brother worked in Burger King corporate at the time, and man, did he get me a ton of those trading cards....
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iSKUNK!
If you follow the Sonic comics, you might like Dan Drazen's reviews of them:
http://www.andrews.edu/~drazen/slknot.htm
I run a StH mailing list, but that's about all that's on it...
Yep! I read the comics for a time, and always read his reviews after each one. And it's true what he says---many times, the reviews are more entertaining than the comics themselves
(What was especially cool was meeting an StH comic artist at Anime Boston, many years later---I don't remember his name, but he was brought on to replace the outgoing J.Axer. And he said that everybody at Archie's StH department follows Dan's reviews religiously...)
It's amazing that the comic (and Dan's reviews, and your mailing list!) are still running to this day. I'd grown disaffected, however, with how the plot/characters/everything started revolving around the latest Sega game release, rather than the SatAM continuity. I think it was around the time Sonic Adventure came out that I finally gave it up....
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iSKUNK!
I found out about fandom when I was 12 years old and a friend of mine rushed up to me with a flyer about a convention downtown devoted to our favorite show, "Star Trek" it was 1972. Yes, our parents let us go.
I found out about Furry fandom when my wife told me about this big con in Philly based around those great badges she's been doing so many of lately. had to be about 10 years ago.
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David M Stein, DI
"Not Unlike the Toaster, I Control the Darkness"
-- Abby Normal, "You Suck"
I found out about being furry when I was five. A group of "Blue Birds" that my older sister belonged to (kinda like Girl Scouts but without the cookies) was asking what my "Indian" name was (sorry about the un-PC term, this was 1976 after all) because I had been to so many of their meetings. The first thing that popped in my head was "Fox" and ever since I've identified very closely to that animal. You can blame Donald Duck for helping change my species but that's a different story
It wasn't until 1997 that I discovered the community when a computer-savvy friend found out that I loved drawing anthro-animal toon characters (all the time since High School) and decided to print out a stack of info on "Furries" for me, including some artist names and FurryMuck. Everything changed forever...it was the freakiest, most profound experience I've ever had, up until I found the love of my life Incidently, it happened the week before comet Hale-Bopp showed up so if that's not a crazy sign...
alt.lifestyle.furry has been immortalized on the Xbox game The Simpsons Hit and Run (one of the characters mentions it). Anybody else catch that one?
Well, I have technically been furry for as long as my brain has been capable of processing speech. I always was fascinated by talking animals, and had a strong affinity for lions by age 2 (I would have gotten eaten on the savana really quick ), but it wasn't until 1999, while searching for info on tigers for a place I was volunteering at the time that I stumbled upon Tigerden... and then the Chakat's Den... and it just expanded dramatically from there.
And soon I was the most popular furry of all time! :]
*Charline de Lyon jabs da hyooman* No, you suck and everyone hates you! >:3
*has characters that are mean to him* :C
LMFAO! You are a funny cat!
I got my introduction when Rene Gobeyn called me up and said "You're unemployed, and I need staff. You're working Anthrocon."
i started out with pokemon. i love watching the shows and i alwasys followed the show. as i got older, i tried other things as well, that of which included finding furries on the web. i later was converted to being a fully fledged furry! 
I found out about Anthrocon by Second Life and the staff and member over at the bad dragon forums with Varka and the gang ^^
well me I was introduced to the fandom through a local DDR tournament 
,and saw some people wearing tails and suits so yeah....XD
<----Points to badge
My story is about as long and convoluted as most everyone's here. X3
Just as soon as I could walk, I was also walking on all fours - not crawling, mind; but running to and fro with my butt in the air and my feet and hands on the floor. I think it was because of all the cats I grew up around (15 when I was born!), and I wanted to be like them. So most of my formative years were spent running on all fours, meowing, hissing and clawing, and even headbutting people in the leg (not in the nice way).
Fast forward to 6th grade, and I was being punished for something in school that I had done (lord knows what it was), and our punishment was to pick a page in the dictionary and copy it to paper ver batim. What do you know, that the entry for Griffin was right there in the page I had chosen at random; I was immediately drawn to the half eagle half lion creature, and started to doodle them not long after that.
I was 15 when the interwebs were introduced to our home, and immediately made it my own - at first I went to AOL chat sites playing as the pokemon Arcanine, but later changed it to an anthropomorphic gryphon, as people seemed to be doing to the pokemon. I had no idea this was technically being a furry; I just wanted to be a gryphon that could walk and talk. XD
During all this time, back until I could remember my dreams, I was always flying in them. With wings, without wings, feathery wings, leathery wings, being an animal, simply leaping long distances - I was always flying in my dreams. I even turned into an anthro gryphon at one point in my dreams, and ran into the back room of my house (in the dream, of course) to show my mom - who didn't seem the least bit surprised. XD
Anywho, I'm not sure if it was my brother who initially introduced me to the term (he's the one that showed me the art and introduced me to the comic Sabrina Online), or if I found out about the term myself, but after that, I knew inherently that I was a furry, and was always meant to be a furry.
i remember one time i had a dream i was a giant bat, and i flew into this huge resteruant and caused general havoc for some time, then found my best freind, slightly less best freind, and my ex all sitting at a diner table and ate them all, starting with my best freind ^^ the look on his face was priceless XD
i also had another dream, i cant remember the whole thing, but i remember seeing 2 raccoons under a table; the first one ties me up and drags me to the ground, and then the second scampers off to get a buzooka.
plus i've always been fascinated by things that go bump in the night, my particular favortie when i was 7 to research was werewolves
even though it started out as a raccoon and even to this day i still identify as a raccoon(because explaining the word "chiroprocyon" to a bunch of idiots isn't all that appealing to me) my fursona is part bat.
by no coincidence, i made that change after i won a marco/polo tournement.
i was chanel surfing one day, and i turn to discovery channel or something and see a special on "humanimals". #3 in the extreme countdown was a fursuiter, a white tiger, and a MAJOR collector of plushies (none of them had holes ripped in their crotches, thankfully). ever since i was younger i had thought of what it would be like to wear, oh, say, a halloween costume all your life, maybe due to some tragic hot glue gun incident. then i thought "is it possible that on this 6.7 billion person planet, there may be at least one other person who wants to spend more than one day out of every 365 in a costume?". as it turned out, the answer was yes. but, discovery channel failed to include the "not all furries are fursuiters" part, so i was just a bit wary of joining the subculture, especially considering some of the dirty looks the guy got in the videos. about a year later, i did some more digging, and found a community of daydreamers who wondered what life would be like with a tail, and immediatley knew i was among...well, i cant think of any other words for the feeling but "among my own kind" but that sounds just a bit cheesey. anyway, at first i didnt like fursuiters because i was still new to the fandom, i still had some of those "he is not like me, he is therefore a freak" kinda thoughts lurking in the back of my mind. eventually i got used to them, envied them for a short period, then considered joining them. i also unearthed babyfurs after a period, i'm still not quite used to them, but that's better than before, when i absolutley hated them. the only reason i'm not all that fond of them now, i think, is because whenever i see a diaper, a picture of a diaper, a person who may be wearing a diaper, or anything at all that can be directly or indirectly associated with diapers, my nostrils are filled with that kind of smell you know is in your head, but it still smells like crap. i suppose i could bear having a babyfur as an aquaintance, maybe even as a freind, but as far as role-playing goes, that's where i draw the line. i dont know why, i never have liked babies. when my 2 year old cousin comes over and starts crying, i roll my eyes and retreat to my bedroom, where i can drown out the noise with my toby mac CDs.
so, i'm relatively new to the fandom, but compared to some people i've met, i'm considerably well informed; particularly on a website that had a particularly interesting brand of avatars called furries(yes, they were actually furries; canine furries.) that everyone bought and every time i asked someone if they were a furry, if they happened to be wearing the avatar they'd say yes, then when i ask what species they were, they'd give me that blank stare thats so blaitantly obvious i can feel it through the internet.
My route to the fandom would have to be when I did a persuasive speech in favor of genetic engineering for a school project.
I started looking at plants replacing multivitamins and curing genetic diseases with a possibility of even research that pointed to someday regenerating entire limbs.
Then I saw something about possibly enhancing humans in general, but we're still apparently at least a decade from changing an already living human. And since then, I've essentially thought, "Man, it would be cool to..." the image keeps changing. Then I decided to search for people that might have a similar opinion and eventually ended up here.
now I have a job in customer service (running phones at a papa johns) and I have finally confirmed that humans are lazy, evil, and incompetent creatures. And I have determined that I would do just about ANYTHING to not be a part of it.
I don't doubt that I sound crazier than Alondro with this post, but I personally don't care what people think of me in most cases these days, They're obvious inferiors if they pride themselves on being part of an outdated race.
Let's see now, it all started when I was about 12 years old. I got into horror films, with the first films being Alien and An American Werewolf in London. Thanks to AWIL, I loved werewolves...so I quickly went onto the internet to scearch plenty of things about them.
After a bit of searching, a site linked me to two different places. The first one was an art site that had various artists from Furnation (Nudog, Grisser, Paf etc.) It was rather interesting since I thought the art was great, but I also dicovered my sexuality right then and there.
The second place was a fursuiters website, namely a fellow who goes by Brokken T. Wolf. I took a look around and quickly came to the conclusion that this was my kind of fandom, art and fursuiting wise.
As for letting my parents know, it was a bit more interesting. I first told my Mom who quickly responded with "That's fine." In reality, she admitted that back then she had no idea what "Furry" was when I came out to her.
As for my Dad, well this is where the dreaded CSI episode comes into play. We were carving pumpkins, it premiered on tv...I quickly said "Yeah, that's not what the fandom is all about..." and thankfully my Dad was understanding and now that he knows what the fandom is about, he has no problem with it.
As for my Mom, well she attended AC 09' with me and had a blast.
Good comment, Silverwulf. Brokken's website was also one of my earliest views into the fandom proper (meaning not just info sites or MUCKs). And Furnation was cool, too. It would be a VERY interesting place to discover your sexuality And yay for mom and dad!
"END OF LINE" -Master Control Program
I have a sort of dual introduction to the fandom. Starting about 9 years ago or so, friends online would send me furry artwork or links to it. Some I liked and saved a copy of, others I didn't, but I enjoyed those I did like. Eventually a friend showed me a picture of his fursuit which was kinda cool, but I guess my impression of it was that it was mostly an at-home hobby. I figured he maybe wore it to a friend's house, or for parties especially around Halloween, and that people who would make and wear such a costume for recreational purposes was extremely rare. Several friends in chat acted out their fursona with wagging tails and ear scritching, and while it seemed cute I figured it was something they limited to online activity. Even though I enjoyed the artwork and had my "Skyfox" nic, I never considered myself to be a furry and never acted out any sort of fursona. As time went on and I understood better what furries were, I thought myself even less of a furry because I was under the impression that all furries were fursuiters.
Then last year my roomie says, "Hey, let's go to Anthrocon."
That tended to change things a bit for me. Being rather unsocial I was quite reluctant to go but he talked me into it, and we went. AC '08 was my second introduction to the furry fandom, and it wasn't long before I realized just how much of a furry I was. I also learned a great deal about how the furry community reaches all branches of humanity by having people of all nationalities (it's not just an American hobby, it's global!), races, genders, gender identities, sexualities, ages, religions, military/civilians, occupations/careers, income levels, education levels, talents (art, puppetry, comedy, dance, etc.), personalities, physiques/fitness levels, physical abilities (I thought it was so cool that those with handicaps find no restrictions and a great deal of inclusion in the furry community), and whatever else. That's where I came up with the quote line...
"Furries are everywhere, furries are everybody."
Skyfox
wait a minute, i think i've seen that picture before...
arent you the guy with the shoulder problem who bought the horse that also had the shoulder problem?
"the first person to throw an insult instead of a rock was the founder of modern civilization!" -Mark Twain.
Well...I didn't BUY him xD But yes I am that guy...but that still isn't how I got my start in the fandom! I don't remember how that happened exactly. [shrug]
aaaaah. aHA.
reminds me of this time i saw a horse for sale...apparently the family was so eager to get rid of it they were selling it for 1 dollar! i can picture it now, a man goes out to the flea market to get the fixins fer some viddles, and he comes back with a horse. then the wife says "well honey, it's gonna taste mighty odd, but if you want it, you got it..."
"the first person to throw an insult instead of a rock was the founder of modern civilization!" -Mark Twain.
That happens quite frequently. A lot of times you find people desperately giving away their horses for free. Either that, or they shoot them in the head. In some cases I have come across they couldn't afford a gun or ammunition. So they either choked the horse to death or beat it or stabbed it. It isn't a pleasant reality really. But there are two types of horse people. Those that are insane, and those that go insane on them. I'm a number two.
yikes, beat a horse to death?! wouldnt that take, like, a car or something? if it were a human, heck, i'd sit there and watch the guy beat him with a tub of popcorn, but a horse? last time i checked, they weren't overpopulating the planet.
if it were me, i'd just leave the door open wherever i was keeping him and hope he'd walk out.
"the first person to throw an insult instead of a rock was the founder of modern civilization!" -Mark Twain.
A crowbar. Several times to the face. There are other horror stories I could tell but...I REALLY ought not to bring them up here. My FA page is open to all questioning but a LOT of the things I have seen humans do to animals is incredibly...squicky. No one ever lets a horse walk free either. That always seems to be the last thing on their minds.
i got bored one night running from my homework across the interwebz, and found something that reminded me of this conversation and thought you might find at least slightly amusing.
it claims to be the ballad of a horse with a spot upon its forehead.
I've heard of furry fandom but until AC'09 I never considered the possibility. My other friends are veterans at this and it was eye-opening to see how intricate the designs can get. And sometimes what looks to be so complicated is actually very simple.
For example, regarding cooling systems in the costumes, it's very easy to install a cooling fan normally used for CPU's into the head for air circulation. Plus to mount the head on top of a bicycle helmet frame ensures that it remains stable.
I have yet to break out the drills and other tools to go at some modifications I'd like to do (my Creator is busy enough with also becoming a registered pharmacy tech, among other things). But at least I have the measurements of my head and its facial features all mapped out for various head and mask designs. I've prototyped some designs in paper so that I could use that to fine-tune the designs before making the final designs out of whatever target material I desire (spandex, foam rubber, latex, etc.). And paper is cheap.
Let's just say that furry fandom opened up more ways that I can costume. And it doesn't necessarily have to be full-blown furry. For now I prefer a cartoonish look in sleek and shiny materials. Hopefully my life will blossom in regards to how much my own Creator is in demand due to His professional life and responsibilities. When He benefits I benefit.
--RB-HK
Hi. This is my first post here.
I don't remember exactly how I found out about the fandom. I've always loved animals and anthropomorphic creatures. I probably just heard about it somewhere on the internet and eventually learned more and more about it. Now I'm happy to call myself a furry.
Alright...It all started like this: I was Role Playing (RPing) a Vulprin (Fox Anthro species) and was about to try my hand at drawing him as I do with all my Characters (tradition you know). Then I reallised that I had never really tried to draw an anthro before...thought about it but never actually did. So I set off into the wild blue yonder known to me as "Google Searching". After about three hours I had found out about such a place as this and after a little internal debate went on and tried my hand at the whole thing...that same day I took the Name Marrek Green (one of my oldest and most loved RP Aliases) and applied it to my current Orty self...there you have it...how I found the place...
long story short, i was a halo addict, a bad one, and i loved furries so, fandom replaced halo 
Well, back in May of this year, I was cruising around the internet, and I found Amy the Squirrel by Eric W. Schwartz. I then found his webcomic Sabrina Online and read the whole thing. The essence of the comic gave me this feeling of completeness, a feeling that no other comic has given me up to that point. I found out that he goes to Anthrocon every year, and I wanted to meet him. So, I researched Anthrocon, watched videos, and realized that the essence of the webcomic was all around Anthrocon. It was the essence of Furry.
Since then, I read as many interesting furry webcomics I can find, I never miss the Funday Pawpet Show, and I started drawing my very own webcomic, "Through Light and Darkness" (Coming soon, to a web page near you!)
I hope everybody in the furry fandom feels this essence of which I speak of.
if you think sabrina was good, try better days, the #1 furry web comic out there, of coarse, they finished it and are making a sequel original life
Better Days was an awesome comic, I read the whole thing and thought is was great. Original life isn't as great, but it has only just begun. The best comic I have read so far is "Jack" by David Hopkins. If you haven't seen it, its about the grim reaper appearing in different stories where good innocent people die for no reason, and he is there to take them to judgment. It's a good webcomic, involving Hell and Heaven, angels and demons, and Earth in between. www.pholph.com
well, if we're talking webcomics, then i've definetley got something to contribute. both jack and better days do sound like formadible comics, but i think by far exterminatus now is the best one out there. it's set on sonic the hedgehog's home planet of mobius, and revolves around 4 main characters: 2 members of the mobian inquisition(a secret society supposedly dedicated to exterminating daemons but extremely more interested in slacking off), a young beam sword-weilding daemon hunter, and a psychotic cyborg mercenary. virus the rat and eastwood the gray fox, rogue the cat, and lothar the echidna, respectivley. the plots often involve the 4 dark gods and their daemons and/or the cultists who follow them, however there are many strips filled with mentions of possesed toasters, coffee addictions, and porn. overall very funny.
some of my favorites:
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20070202.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20050329.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20050330.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20050406.html
a bit about the dark gods' poker night:
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20070330.html
i tried to find some better ones but im relativley brain dead this sunday afternoon. soooooo...yeah.
Let's see. I was 12. It was the first year of middle school. 7th grade. When I was finished with my work on the computer, I googled random images. One of them was The American Journal Of Anthropomorphics #4. Intrigued, I did further link hopping, and the rest is history.
From alt.fan.furry.
A Newsgroup. On UseNet.
C'mon, Usenet? Someone remembers Usenet. Someone? Anyone?
*feels old*